Are Partnerships a Complete Waste of Time?

0:00 When you're truly successful is when your partners want you to win.

0:14 Welcome to The LeanScale Podcast where we talk about everything RevOps. Thank you for listening.

0:26 Today, we're going to be talking about partnerships. In my opinion, one of the most overlooked areas of a go-to-market strategy, and I'm super excited. I have an amazing guest here today. His name is Tim White. He's a three-time chief partnership officer for scaling technology companies, currently the co-founder and chief partnership officer of Wealth, and most importantly, one of my good friends. Tim, thank you so much for being here. Super excited. I am absolutely thrilled to be here. And Anthony, I got to tell you, I'm so proud of you. Well, you built at Lean Scale is absolutely incredible. You've done something really amazing here. And I'm just

0:59 getting to know you over the years and seeing this come to fruition. It's awesome. So happy to be here. Thank you. Happy to talk about partnerships. Thank you. Sports much appreciated. Thank you. Thank you. Awesome. Let's get cracking. Cool. Well, do we have any special guests that... We do. Yeah, funny you say that. So come on over here. This is my assistant, William Matthew White. This is my son. He's nine. Just graduated third grade. William, say hi to the audience. Hi. Good job. High five now. All right. Awesome. Good job. Good job. William, I think you're going to be the next guest. We'll do a better partnerships episode

1:34 next time. I teed it up. Absolutely. We'll have your dad warm up the topic. I love it. So back to partnerships. I think, in my opinion, I mentioned it, it's just so overlooked. And I think people don't really have the right mindset when they're approaching partnerships. And you've done this, and I think you did partnerships before you even had partnerships in your title. But tell me, what's the mindset you need to have if you're going to be building a partnership program or if you're going into a partnership role? Oh, that's a great question. First and foremost, I mean, going into a partnership role,

2:12 it's, you know, you got to find people that just love building relationships and you need to find people that really are eager to establish trust. And, you know, one of the things I always say to my partnership teams and, you know, look at if you wake up in the morning and you look at your inbox and a good day has zero problems, you're in the wrong role. In partnerships, you open up that inbox and it's always, hey, I need to find a pin to a grenade. Oh, I need to cut the red wire, the blue wire. So there's always a situation where you need to figure out a Rubik's Cube and you need

2:48 to balance things because you're not only thinking about the company's interests, but also your partner's interest. And, you know, as you start to grow your partnership strategy and bringing on different relationships, oftentimes there is some challenges that can face just with the competition, right? You start to have partners that are starting to rub shoulders, which, you know, is something that's not easy to balance, but, you know, one thing that also just needs a lot of attention. So, you know, having people that have that mindset is just super, super, super critical.

3:19 I think when you're thinking about opening up partnerships within your organization is you just need to, you need it to look internally, you know, is this part of our overall objective? Is this our go to market motion? How will this add to what we're doing? Because if you're going at it and you're saying, look it, we do want to have a thriving direct business where we're selling direct to accounts. At the same time, we want to have a robust partnership program. You know, you're going to have teams that have different agendas internally where you need to think about

3:54 compensation. You need to think about, you know, who's going to have authority when things start to build when there's, let's say, some tension building within an account. And I can give you some examples of that. But yeah, it's definitely an assessment that needs to happen. But I'll tell you, I love it. I live and breathe it. Nothing is more exhilarating than building a successful channel program where your partners not only are excited about the growth, the revenue, but also like really want to champion you to win. And I was on this flight just recently, funny enough, Anthony, I had this 83 year old, 83 year old woman sitting next to me,

4:36 you know, his bucket seat is American Airlines. It was a four hour or whatever it is, New York, Phoenix flight, you know, long one. And she was awesome. She just wanted to chat the whole time, which was not to stay. I wasn't at the moment, but you know, I'm always up for a good conversation. Looking to make me take a nap. Exactly. I was like, watch a movie. Yeah. Long week in New York. I'm like, all right, I got to plug away some emails and watch a movie. But okay. All right, hold on. Let's pause and talk for three hours. But it was funny. She was talking about her life and

5:03 business. And she said, you know what? And I talked about partnerships course. And she said, you know, when you when you're truly successful is when your partners want you to win. And I just thought that was like powerful. And I sat back and go, you know what? That was true. That was the case many times over, especially at the venture that you and I worked together at. That's that's really sage. And I think that's something that I've always seen this. And I know you've seen this too, because we've been in the same situations before. But people approaching

5:34 partnerships with the perspective of what can I get out of this partnership? So I want to build a channel because I just want to sell more of my product. And I don't really care what the partner gets out of this. But I'm building partnership programs for the sole purpose of just seeing what I can win out of it. And I think most people don't understand the give to get mentality that partnerships demands more than anything else. I don't know what what helps people get past that, because in the beginning stages of partnership, when you're investing, there's concessions that

6:09 you typically have to make, it takes longer than everybody always thinks it's going to take. How do you get people past that mindset? It's interesting you say that I just there's an interview. And I've had just, you know, one of those things where you come across the interview, and then you just can't find it again. You know, you look on YouTube, you look on LinkedIn, it's just like, you know, it's missing. But it was an interview with Robert Kraft. And he was talking about, you know, his business ventures. And just, you know, when they really had a turning point, is when they started to think about partnerships as, you know, it's not just us,

6:42 like, we don't need to go in the negotiation and take everything we truly need to make this a win win. And that was just a massive turning point for his organization. And I think that's the case. And I think that's exactly what you're what you're alluding to. You know, one of the things that needs to happen is it needs to be absolutely top down. I mean, top down from the board, from the executive leadership, they need to be completely bought in. Because if you're coming at it saying, look it, we just want another revenue stream, you're not going to have a successful partnership program,

7:12 I can guarantee it. And I would bet against you. Because, you know, like you just said, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, to have especially in the space that we came from in the previous venture, you know, there's a lot of investment early on, to see the fruition and see the success, because you are going to make those concessions. I mean, I remember we are working with a large financial institution, we had a direct relationship, at the same time, we had a partnership with one of our bigger accounts, right, it was new, it's exciting, it was a household brand. And

7:47 I remember one of the executive leaders reached out and said, look it, we have an opportunity, we're trying to sell into this account, we heard that you already have activity in this account. Do you think it's possible that we could resell your product through our platform that we're trying to deploy? And we lost some money. I mean, there was no question about it. But that's when the buy-in was there, because I took it right to our CEO and founder and said, like, look at this, this is the case. If we invest now, and we short ourselves a little bit on this deal, we're going

8:18 to see fruits from this, because we're going to get the attention of not only their North America team, their South America team, LATAM and Asia. And that was the case. I mean, it really springboarded the whole relationship. And I think you're right something you said earlier, if it's not coming from the top, if you know, a CRO or VP of sales is making that decision. Typically, you're living quarter by quarter. So you're going to go with whatever gives you the most revenue today. And you may not be incentivized to look too far into the future. You have a unique title. Not a lot of

8:53 people get into the C-suite with the title chief partnerships officer. And I would just love your take on one, how would somebody go from being a partner manager director to getting into that type of leadership role? And two, what's your advice to companies that don't have that role on their executive team? Now? Wow, that's, that's a good question. I oftentimes look at the title and I don't know what it is. Chief partnership officer. It is unique. It is unique. I think again, like, you know, when you think about full buy-on of the organization, the executive leadership, the board,

9:31 you start to carve out that, that, that, that title, that, that job description, that strategic influencer and within the organization, just because like, look at when we go back to the previous venture, especially with a lot of startups, I'm sure there's a lot of startups that are tuning into the Lean Scale podcast. You know, for us, the previous event venture, a lot of our partners are actually our potential suitors who was going to acquire us. So it was very much in our advantage to have a focus there. And so I think over time, as we started to not only look at that strategic position, but how the revenue carve out started to be more,

10:11 you know, the fastest growing revenue stream was partnerships for over four years as a result. So not to have, I wouldn't say myself, but somebody in this type of role in that room, I think would be a big disadvantage, right? But yeah, I mean, it's, it's exciting. I think with companies, again, you know, sizing it up, it's, you know, you got to look at your go-to-market strategy. You got to look at partnerships. I think companies not truly deep down making that assessment are really, really shorting themselves on the long term. Because, you know, if it's not you,

10:47 you got to step back and go, there may be a competitor that's going to be aligned and maybe a competitor that's going to fill that vacuum. And am I going to be in better shape then? You know, the direct relationship because of the control when you sell direct, it is super attractive, but there is a lot of things to consider before you roll out your strategy. Yeah. And I think you definitely miss out on the acceleration and something I don't think people think about enough is what you mentioned. Your potential partners are your potential suitors in strategic acquisitions. And most people listening to this podcast, you're in a company

11:23 that's either marching towards an IPO, which we all know is a very, very, very, very small percentage, or a successful strategic acquisition and exit. And in that case, you can really create this opportunity to start to build the relationship with the potential acquire. And I think that's the best way to do it because you're starting to already even build in companies energies, you're building relationships with the company, you're starting to size up how you may operate together, how you may integrate where the products energies may be, you have potentially years to

12:01 test that out where if you think you're just going to walk up and ask somebody to buy your company, that's not going to happen. Oh, oh, without a doubt. I mean, look at, you know, the synergies are critical, right? When companies evaluate, you know, acquisitions, they're going to potentially make. And, you know, it wasn't by random chance that, you know, in 2017, we decided to put an office in Atlanta, next to Lexus Nexus headquarters, along with Equifax, you know, we really wanted to make that investment, we really wanted to nurture the relationship, we did want to show the cultural

12:36 similarities and that collective team dynamic. And I think obviously, it paid the way towards where we are today and then the success that we had at email age. I think so too. And one thing, I know you've always been good about I'm familiar with your strategy here. And I'd love to hear you dive into a little bit. But the difference between having lots of partners versus a select few, how do you how do you think through that? And how do you select a partner to start investing in? Oh, that's, that's a phenomenal question. Phenomenal question. I think it's different from

13:16 all organizations. I think, you know, look at today at wealth.com, it's different than it was at email age, or go to market strategy different. It's a B2B to C play. Really, we look at all of our advisory relationships, wealth management firms, you know, the big enterprise players that we're working with today, as partners, right? So stepping back from that, and maybe focusing more on the venture that we were working together, and obviously with the successful acquisition, it was it's about the intentionality, right? Because we had limited bandwidth, limited

13:48 resources, and to do things right, you know, you really have to make that type of investment. And so earlier on, about 2016, it was an evaluation of the partners, I think we had 23 partners at that time. And at that time, we had 23 partners, I was producing very, very little revenue. And so we took a step back, and we just assessed, we looked at who do we really truly want to partner with, and where can we really look and say there is an obvious one plus one equals 11. And through that, we actually terminated quite a few of those relationships, and then that focus approach

14:18 started. And again, going back to the alignment between the whole organization is those first years were quite an investment, where we weren't necessarily seeing that immediate return, you know, and that's something that people just need to have an appetite for, right? And fortunately, you know, our board and Ray Carballo, our CEO and founder, were completely aligned with this, because they saw the bigger vision, right? And, you know, we decided to take the focus approach. And, you know, I can just tell you like, example, I mean, one of the major card issuers that we partnered with,

14:53 you know, we put a ton of investment there. I mean, I remember being on a plane even over Thanksgiving, spending time in their Dubai office, Sydney office, London office, Mexico city office, but it was like this hearts and minds tour. And we knew it going into it. And it was just interesting being in a boardroom. And they're like, you are everywhere. And this is their executive leadership, right? And that really paved the way. Because we started to build that trust, and that we're going to be there for the long run. And we're really investing in this relationship. At the end of the

15:26 day, you know, these relationships are just like any human relationship, right? And I always said to my team, it's like, we got to build such a high level of trust that if they called our personal phone at 3am on a Sunday morning, they know we're going to pick up that call and be as eager to problem solve their situation as they are. And once you kind of get there, and you convince that that's where you start to see things really blossom. And it's incredible. And it's a ton of fun to see it happen. You know? Absolutely. No, the you said it, they're human relationships, it takes time to

16:02 build. And I don't think people are wanting to invest that amount of time. I don't think people realize that, you know, the multiple trips, and being on the road and being there in person and taking the time to get to know those partners on a personal level is worth it. You know, most of the people we're working with are measuring conversion rates and sales cycles and wanting to know where the return is right away. And sometimes you can't measure it. And I, you know, something we talk about on the Lean Scale podcast quite often is just tactically what does a day to

16:35 day, week to week, month to month look like for somebody who's in partnerships. And I, you alluded to it a little bit, but I'd like you to go deeper. What if you're in partnerships, you're managing a portfolio of partners, what should your schedule look like? Look at I mean, and I know it'll be different a little bit for everybody in general, like how much in person time do you index over other things? And what does it take to build the type of relationships that you have built in the past? I would actually over index the fact that you got to be there in person. I mean, the reality

17:10 is it's a life on the road. You know, obviously, before COVID, post COVID, but now since the world's getting back to get back to the swing of things, right? I think we all just have like very much like I heard, you got to have goldfish memory, a memory of a goldfish, right? 10 second memory. So I guess that's how we are when with COVID, right? It's behind us. Now let's move on. Let's get on planes again. Let's get to conferences. But what I'm trying to say is, yeah, I mean, over index on the travel, get there, be in person, shake their hands, meet them, meet their team, get everyone's

17:44 buy in, treat everyone with that organization with the same respect that you would actually treat that executive leader. You know, because at the end of the day, especially, and I imagine, you know, many of your partners and clients that you work with all being in the technology space, there's just such a bad reputation of vendors that are out there that are set it and forget it, just like you said, you know, waiting for that check to come in the money to come in, but are not there. And so even earlier on while you're prospecting and building that relationship with the partner, they start to

18:15 see that earlier on in the process, then they have the faith and the trust when you say, look it, we're kick club, we're layering on the resources. They don't need to take a second look. They trust that because they've already seen it. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think you have to differentiate yourself and talking about COVID, I think you may stand out even more now. So now that people aren't, I think, yes, travels picked up a little bit more, there are more conferences, but I see a lot of people who are still spending most of their year at home. And I think if you

18:46 get out on the road, get in front of people, you can stand out even more than you could before. Take advantage of it. You're 100% right. Take advantage of it. I remember earlier on before we launched wealth.com, spending time in New York, spending time in California, getting on the road. And I just remember, I mean, big institutions where they're saying, hey, look it, we're not back yet. Or we're doing a hybrid or we're doing this, but we love to meet with you. And that's where we're like, hey, we have a WeWork location. Let's have coffee. Let's have lunch. You know, they're

19:17 eager to get out there. They're eager to meet you. Yeah, it is an advantage where you could come in there. And really, again, I mean, it's, you know, people have gotten really comfortable in COVID. I get it. You want to be in your sweatpants. You want to wear your sandals. Like we're all there. Like I love my work days at home. But, you know, for you to build a thriving business and build a culture of success and build actually like partners and clients that are evangelists of your product and going back to what that woman said on that plane where your partners want you to win, you got to break bread with them. You got to be there with them.

19:56 Yeah, I think it's winning the hearts and minds. It's not just about the pricing and product combination sheets. It's really about like you said, when you're on the flight, having them want you to win and going out of their way so that you win, that takes time and it takes some real connection. And it has to come to a place where I mean, I think like building, we're really excited here at wealth, building the evangelists that we built so early on, it's just been absolutely incredible. But even at email age, it was the same thing. And it was that investment that was really relationship is taking that 3am call. It was their understanding

20:31 their personal situation as well, the dynamics within their organization. So yeah, I think that this is just it's right for the taking. I think any anyone that's listening to this podcast is thinking about a partnership program, definitely open up an expensive budget, let your team get out there, let your team get on the road. I'll tell you something, some of the most strategic and valuable information I have heard, which informed some of our strategy at the previous venture was actually those conversations, those off the cuff things that happen in the break room while you're

21:01 getting coffee or when you took that Uber driver, the Uber ride to that restaurant, you know, where you just get that bit of this, you get a bit of that, you can't accomplish that over a video call. They're not going to share that on a recorded zoom? They're not going to. Exactly. Anyone that's listening, I have to tell you this, I'm not a fan of the recorded zoom personally. No, me neither. Yeah, I think it's a little bit much. No, unless it's very operational, it's training, it's something like that. I completely agree. Do you really want your prospects and clients just to be guarded the whole time on

21:29 a call if that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense? No, I prefer, hey, be comfortable, be candid, because they never know where that's going to be shared. So no, I'd like to turn the recording off. It's funny, it's the same thing like with the podcast. It's like lights, camera, action, somebody just freezes up. Why would you not think that would be the same case? I'm going to say, hey, we're joining a zoom call. You mind if I record this call and it's going to live in the universe for eternity? Yeah, it's like, come on. I'm going to send it to your boss after two.

21:56 Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Here's the part that I always thought was almost terrifying about being in partnerships. Because you talk about you're on the road, you're building relationships, you're building in a lot of cases, true friendships in those business relationships that you're building. And then you have channel conflict. How does your mind even work? What framework do you use when you may have three or four partners you have a great relationship with, they're all vetting for the same deal you're going after, they're all expecting you to be there for them

22:34 and have their back and support them. How do you manage that double agent lifestyle of being in both ends of each side of the partnerships and just managing the potential conflicts that could come up? Well, you know, there's some foundational things you have to have in place. One of them is this, like don't favor a partner. And what I'm saying is, you know, when you think about your support, getting on the road, being there in person, giving access to different departments within your team, your technology department, giving them early access, visibility and roadmap,

23:10 like you cannot cherry pick partners, you got to make a level playing field for all. You know, if a partner chooses, hey, look at, we don't need your support, we don't need your help, and their standoffish, well, then that's their issue. But you as an organization, as a partnership team, you need to make sure you are absolutely fair to all your partners. I think commercially, too, you got to make sure that I've always said this, you know, when you're in a commercial negotiation, you should feel comfortable enough of what you're negotiating, that if it was exposed

23:43 to their competitor, one of their, you know, one of your partners, but one of your partner's competitors that's partnered with you, you should be okay with that. You know, because if you're going into the negotiation, you know, everyone has level playing field, then they need to really add that layer of value to be able to close that deal. And it's not on you. How do you start teaming that up in early on in the relationship, letting them know it's going to be an early, like letting them know it's going to be an even playing field, letting them know that you're not going to have

24:14 favoritism? How do you balance that while also winning hearts and minds and, and saying you're going to have their back? Look at, at the end of the day, it's, you know, you got to have it in writing, got to have in communication. You got to put that offer out there, you know, with, with, with the team that managed, you know, the variety of different relationships with partners that competed on many different deals. It's just that, hey, if they have an event, we'll be there, right? We'll be there. If they have, they have a request to be there at a client

24:42 meeting or a prospecting meeting, we'll be there. And if they tell us, no, we have that in writing, we have that in communication. Now, whether they, you know, we're never going to get into, you know, I did this and edit this, but at least that we know, you know, true to our hearts that we were fair to both parties. That makes a lot of sense. I think just honest, clear communication, getting the communication out front and not waiting for a situation to happen before you make those expectations clear, I think is, is really important and then supporting in other ways.

25:12 Yeah. Other ways that wouldn't cause as much conflict. I mean, I think we, you know, thinking about some of the different partnerships in the past, you know, we became a little annoying, I think. Just begging to be there and really wanting to support because we knew like for, in order for them to be successful, you know, we need to be an extension of their team. You know, I remember we had a partner based out of Tel Aviv that was difficult because it was a difficult partner to manage because just the distance in addition to that, obviously dealing with time zones.

25:45 But we knew that there was a lot of opportunity in this relationship. There's a lot of interesting things that we could explore as far as like the technology is, but also just like the team dynamic. You could feel it on a call. That's the type of investment. I mean, I had my team fly out there multiple times. And then, you know, after the second, the third, the fourth visit, you would see them, you know, sharing, you know, fun activities and just deepening their knowledge. And that contract grew exponentially, which was extremely valuable for us, but extremely valuable

26:18 for them to hit their objectives. So, you know, again, I think sometimes you're knocking on the door, you're begging to help, but, you know, you have to have a willing participant on the other side of the table, too. Absolutely. Something I've struggled with, I know a lot of our customers struggle with because I think there's a lot of gray area to it. And it's just tough to do is measuring the success of your partner program. And let me share, this is what we typically see as a challenge, and I'd really, really like your insights on this. You have a select few partners,

26:56 you have your direct business that's also running as well. And so a lot of people naturally would say, well, I'm going to measure the success of my partner program by how much revenue the partners are bringing in. When sometimes you may want to win direct instead of winning through a partner, maybe it depends which way it goes. How do you measure the success of a program? And what are some data points that you might be able to look at to tell whether the investments you're making are ultimately paying off or not? That's a great question. I think a couple things. One,

27:32 measuring success of the channel program. If you take a step back, because you're talking about both competing interests, you have a direct team that's selling direct, of course, and then you have your partner and your channel team and they have their own KPIs that they're trying to reach. I think aligning that incentive structure is absolutely foundational and critical. Because, again, this isn't relevant to the company wealth.com, because we really do look at almost everyone we interacted as a partner, but more to the other venture where we had 47% of our revenue coming

28:08 from channel, you had 53 coming through direct. You also wanted to balance it correctly too. You don't want to be over concentrated in a single partner because there's risk there. So there's always things to consider. And that's why, again, going back to achieve partnership officer role or somebody to be there in that room with the executive leadership is very, very important to be able to continue to drive that intelligence, talk about the dynamics, because they're hearing it firsthand and they're seeing it. So jumping back to that point, but, you know, again,

28:39 incentive structure. So one, when we built out our program, we did not align the partnership's KPIs just on pure revenue of what was coming through channel. What we actually did was base it off of overall revenue targets and revenue goals, meaning the team will succeed absolutely together, meaning the channel team wins when the direct team wins. Also, when we're in those negotiations, internally negotiating whether should we go direct because, you know, there is a justification, the initial lead came in through the direct team, or should we actually go through

29:14 ABC partner because the XYZ reasons, we could sit there with clear conscious with both team members and say, look at, let's take a step back. This makes more sense to go through the channel partner. And these are the reasons why we don't have to do direct connection, which then will lengthen the sales cycle. We can immediately see revenue. And plus this will also deepen the relationship with this partner and they have access to these additional prospects that we were targeting. So aligning the incentive structure is very important. I do have to go back though. You've

29:47 got to have a partnership that the program that's driving revenue, driving new lead, unlocking new opportunities. Those are the things you've got to analyze on a monthly basis at a minimum with leadership, just to continue to get people as enthusiastic as they should be for what's going on in the channel team. But yeah, it's hard things to balance, sometimes hard things to measure, because like even at the previous venture, we did have a list. We knew who was interested, interested suitors and a potential acquisition. So that was part of it as well. So each organization

30:23 probably have their own unique things that they're going to evaluate. I can just tell you the previous venture, the balancing of it was a day-to-day challenge with the direct team. We may need to cut that one. I don't know. I think that's brilliant because it's hard. I don't envy the role. I don't envy the position that partnerships teams are in because I know how difficult it is. And you need people that are really, really dynamic, can think strategic and think long-term while still getting short-term wins. There's just so much to balance. I mean, I've been there in deals as the head of partnerships, managing again,

31:02 critical partnerships to the organization. And I've sat there in deals and said, look, there is little justification for that opportunity to go to the partner. It came in lead. It came in through our direct team. Our direct team has nurtured it. And so I would sit back and be able to say, look at partner. I would have to get on the call with their executive leadership and explain the full dynamics in the sense that, hey, I can't steal this from our direct team. You guys came in late in the game, but there's more opportunities that we can achieve and win together. Let's just go after the next one. Yeah. No, that's great. I think the best way

31:36 we found a measure is looking at revenue, looking at bookings, looking at pipeline generation and lead sourcing. That starts to give you an idea. So if you're looking for really objective metrics, I think you do have to measure them, but then I think take it with a grain of salt with the subjective benefits of the partnership. Are they a potential acquire? Do they have that level of strategic value in your organization? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Are you co-marketing or developing content together? Or are they helping you serve your customers in other ways that's not directly

32:13 related to revenue? Looking at those subjective aspects, but I would say have them on paper and really make sure the organization knows that, hey, we may make some concessions on the revenue side or the pipeline gen side because they're doing these other things that enterprise value our organization too. Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. I think sometimes even with a deeper partnership, the one plus one of the solution integration could be a huge differentiator. And then also just like, there's many different opportunities that we had multiple direct through

32:50 different use cases, then you know this all too well, right? And then we'll also manage through multiple partners. We work with one of the larger financial institutions. I think we had two direct and then two partner and the two partner use cases were actually from two different partners. So yeah, it's, you know, you need to balance it. But to your point, all those key metrics are important for you to track, of course. It's, you know, again, it's, it comes back to mostly the same kind of basics that you're looking at the direct side of the business, plus all those

33:19 strategic elements. Well, before I sum things up, any, any advice somebody stepping into a partnership role, an organization developing a partnership, business function, or maybe even opening up that C-suite position to have a chief partnership officer, anything you want to leave the listeners with, if they're thinking about any of those things? I mean, look at, if you're in, you're all in, go for it. Okay, you can't, you know, have one foot in, one foot out, you know, assess it and make the decision. But when you make the decision, be willing to invest because,

33:58 you know, oftentimes the initial phase of it is a lot of investment, a lot of time, a lot of resources, a lot of focus. You're not going to see that return, but you put that effort in, you're going to start to see that retainer over time. I also think like step back and look, what if we didn't do this? What if we didn't partner? It's not purely like a revenue game. I mean, look at potential situations where a competitor may start to displace you and they're going to start having the opportunity to scale and unlock new opportunities because you're not there. I mean, there's a lot

34:30 of things to consider. So I think measuring all that and when you're ready to go, really go for it and have a top down approach, get everybody on board and then build out an experienced partnership team that can nurture those relationships and ultimately build a program that can, you know, balance it all. Yeah, I love it. All in. Do it or don't. Yeah, do it or don't. I mean, you know, look at it. It's not for everybody. I've spoken to a lot of people over the years, especially in the previous space. There was a lot of vendors that were out there. You go to the event

35:12 and a lot of them wanted a partner. A lot of them wanted to build a relationship with ABC company, but just couldn't get through, couldn't muster it, couldn't make it happen. And I think that they really, you know, again, just didn't have an all in type strategy. And I think they weren't really willing to commit the resources and then got too short sighted when deals started to flow in on the direct side where they would start to behave in a way where they would already start damaging those relationships. So it's a tough game. Absolutely. Well, I love it. I think to wrap

35:48 it up in summary, hey, the investments are going to take some time. So know that it takes in-person time. It takes real relationship building time. It's not always easy to measure objectively. So you have to have some objective and subjective measurements. And I would, I'd argue, hey, if anybody is interested in building a partnership program, get that executive leadership role in as early as you can. Give somebody the authority to make the decisions that the company needs to make strategically and make the bet. And if you think it's going to be good for your business. So Tim,

36:23 thank you so much. This was awesome. I hope this isn't the last one we do. I think we could probably go on about a million topics. William, thank you for being a guest, a guest guest here today and hope to have you on the next one too. So Tim, thank you so much. Got to tell you, this is awesome. Love this setup. Hayden, thank you so much for making the magic happen. It's great to be in the studio here with you and do this. And I would love to do it again. I'm sure William will play a more prominent role in the next one. All right. Might have him hosting next time. I think it would,

36:54 wouldn't be a horrible idea. You know, what generation are you? Alpha now. I think it's just like, we're going to repeat the alphabet. Millennial X alpha. Anyways. Cool. Thank you so much, Tim. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you like the discussion, please like, share and subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss a new episode.